Hi, I don't know who all has written what, but it seems to me of course that it is Rainer's site and he can do whatever he wants with it. I do not love ads; in fact I usually run my browser with images turned off. On the other hand, I also understand it is wrong to expect Rainer to fund the site completely out of the goodness of his heart. To ensure the site's existence and future, what is really wrong with a few, tasteful ads here and there? Better that than the site should go away and we all maintain poorly-coordinated and widely separated pages flung all across the web and on ugly places like geocities.com. And better that than we should pass the hat and go about piously collecting money from the contributors in the way that is done on FEEFHS and at Rootsweb. Because ads mean that the money to fund the site is coming from the people who are benefiting from it, the readers. And be very thankful that we can actually get ads from a company which is related to genealogy and not have to ask Exxon, Shell Oil or some tobacco company. If people in Germany do not like ads, they do not like the WWW because apart from our site, ads are everywhere. Are people in Germany going to therefore stop using the WWW? I don't think so. I don't have a problem with Broderbund. Their genealogy products are not the world's best, but neither are they the worst. Their worldwide CDROM project is not killing any babies or poisoning anyone's water. Anyone who does not like it is free to keep out of it. Essentially, the project is the same as what the Rootsweb people are doing. Asking for surnames and later on asking for money for the collected data. The only real difference is that Broderbund is more honest about it. And because Broderbund is running it as a business, it is probably more likely to be competently done and maintained in the long run. Well, I am not a genstaff member because I am not that interested in deeply pursuing these types of issues, but there is a one-shot point of view in case it helps. Rick At 11:28 AM 11/19/98 +0100, Arthur Teschler wrote:
On Wed, 18 Nov 1998, Jim Eggert wrote:
Klaus-Peter wrote:
I don't think that we will become commercialized. But why not a few banners for getting money to pay (or reduce the private effort) of our "server-providers"?
1. Banner ads upset me because they waste my time. 2. Banner ads upset many people, especially Germans, because they cost money to download. 3. Banner ads do not further our aim of promoting German genealogy. 4. Banner ads generally do not provide useful information. 5. Broderbund is not a firm that _I_ would want to promote. See http://www.rootsweb.com/rootsweb/more-about-rootsweb/missions.html under the heading "Providing Data" for one reason why. 6. I don't care to work for free to enrich Broderbund.
And Rainer wrote:
es geht hier nicht um das Ueberleben von Broderbund, sondern darum, dass der noch zu gruendende Verein Einnahmen erzielt. Diese Einnahmen sollen dazu dienen die Traeger der Serviceleistungen von Ihren Ausgaben zu entlasten *und* Sonderprojekte zu finanzieren, die halt ohne finanziellen Aufwand nicht moeglich waeren. Betrachte es als Spende gegen Gegenleistung; in Koeln nennt man das Kluengeln und es ist ein durchaus uebliches Verfahren.
Under what legal basis will a club collect money before the club exists? (I expect the answer is: none.)
Who will profit by the initiation of banner ads? (I expect the answer is: Broderbund first and second, and Rainer/Rainer's firm and Fred third.)
Where does the money come from? (From Broderbund, which makes the money by selling software and CDs to mostly hobbyist genealogists.)
Can/should Arthur Teschler or Uni Giessen collect any of the money? Giessen is just as much a mirror of the web pages as is Kerpen, no? (I expect the answer is: no. But is that fair?)
Can/should the authors of the web content or the web page maintainers collect any of the money? Without them there would be no web pages and no ad income. (I expect the answer is: no. Note, I don't want the money, but I don't want others to profit by my volunteer labor.)
I can see the next version of the FAQ already:
___________________________________________ Subject: 33. How can I possibly repay you for all your help?
Please repay help freely given by helping other genealogical researchers to the best of your ability. Publishing your results, perhaps by submitting them to the FHL, is an excellent way of helping others. A thank you would also be nice.
Das sind sehr klare und schluessige Argumente gegen Bannerwerbung auf unseren *gemeinsamen* Seiten. Mir ist auch nicht ganz klar, wieso jetzt auf einmal wieder die Rede von einem zu gruendenden Verein ist. Habe ich da etwas verschlafen? Ich denke, man versucht dem verschlafenen CompGen Verein eine neue Richtung zu geben?
++ Oh, and buy a couple of Broderbund CDs and be glad they can make ++ a few bucks off other people's volunteer efforts.
<grins> Das ist jetzt aber bissig </grins>
Mir kommen in diesem Zusammenhang auch noch andere Bedenken:
Angenommen, Broderbund inseriert auf den Genealogieseiten (welche das auch immer sein moegen) und zahlt dafuer. Wird dann Broderbund das exclusive Recht haben? Wenn spaeter auch noch EDV-Knoll (GES-2000) werben moechte, stellen wir deren Banner daneben, oder sagen wir "geht nicht, den Platz hat schon Broderbund"? Oder denkt sich Rainer ein geniales Skript aus, das die Banner geschickt abwechselt? Muss Broderbund dann weniger zahlen, weil sie ja nicht mehr exklusiv werben? Laeuft das Skript auf allen 3 Rechnern, obwohl weder Fred Lloyd noch ich davon begeistert sind? Oder haben Fred Lloyd und ich stattdessen einen Platzhalter "hier steht in Kerpen Werbung"?
Lass Broderbund exklusiv in Kerpen auf der "Mall" (warum heisst das eigentlich nicht Einkaufsstrasse, ich wusste bis vor kurzem mit diesem Wort nichts anzufangen) werben oder auf dem "private Family pages" Skript. Dann muessen wir hier das Thema nicht mehr durchkauen. Dann braucht man keinen "neu zu gruendenden Verein" (wobei ich dachte, dass dieses Thema laengst gegessen sei) und von den Webseitenautoren muss sich niemand Gedanken machen, ob er mit seiner freiwilligen Arbeit einer Firma in die Haende spielt, mit deren Produkt (oder Firmenpolitik) er sich nicht anfreunden kann/will.
Sorry to vent, but I think that this is just the wrong way to go. Let's not make big mistakes this early in the game. Let's look for other ideas instead.
Arthur.Teschler@uni-giessen.de
PS: Ich denke, dass das Thema auch die Webseitenautoren angeht, von denen ja schliesslich die ganze Arbeit kommt -> daher CC: an webpages-L